Por causa do B R U T U S!!

Pois...

O danado do BRUTUS desencaminhou-me mais uma vez   juizo não ganho nesta cabeça    mas como se consegue agora ir  ao micro-detalhe !? ...
 
 

Escutem! ...
Apurem o ouvidinho! ...
Se o ouvido não ouve(?)... O corpinho sente!? ...
 

Vou ter uns SuperTweeter TANNOY ST50


vai-mos trazer o AJS
 
Obrigado, Chefe!!
 

O que tu foste fazer...coitadinhos dos cães da vizinhança....
 

Reirato, o que se passa contigo, andas totalmente descontrolado.  


 

Antonio, could you please translate that in english? The translator software cannot handle Brutified português...

Thank you a lot!

Er hat diese Tannoy super- tweeter gekauft, weil er meint das der Brutus alles herausholt und die tweeters jetzt rechtfertigt sind.

Obrigado!

BRUTUS and TANNOY share the ability to play musical.

mannitheear escreveu:

Obrigado!

BRUTUS and TANNOY share the ability to play musical.

Let´s see if the super-tweeter makes any noticeable difference.

António José da Silva escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

Obrigado!

BRUTUS and TANNOY share the ability to play musical.

Let´s see if the super-tweeter makes any noticeable difference.

 

Bringen Sie nicht ein schlechtes Omen! Black bird ...

 

In german open end forum is a Tannoy fan and Hifi friend named "Werner" (nickname Kellerkind) who owned many many Tannoys from D 700 up to Westminster, alone 6 pairs of Glenair. He used super tweeters too for a while, and found that it is absolutely room dependent if a super tweeter is necessary or not. In some rooms they seem make a big difference, in others it is "too much". The positioning and setting up is very critical, also the cables.
So, these are not my findings but those of Werner. I never used super tweeters and feel no need for them in my room.
I hope they bring you to "fine detail heaven".

So I have a idea: while Antonio did forbid me praising the Brutus  (you AAP members were so right, he is a really BAD guy I never want to meet nightly in the dark  ), I could praise TANNOY instead.

Your friend Kellerkind must be as mad as our reirato - if one can hear a super-tweeter then it is obviously producing frequencies below 20K, in which case it is no doing more than a plain old tweeter.
A super-tweeter makes as much sense as an infra-red tv...

R


P.S. Como é que se traduz "enfiar o barrete" para alemão?  

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Your friend Kellerkind must be as mad as our reirato - if one can hear a super-tweeter then it is obviously producing frequencies below 20K, in which case it is no doing more than a plain old tweeter.
A super-tweeter makes as much sense as an infra-red tv...

R


P.S. Como é que se traduz "enfiar o barrete" para alemão?  

   

Eu traduzi com o google pode ser que dê uma bonita asneira, aproveitei também e traduzi o "gato por lebre" para reforçar a ideia...

Drehen Sie die Kappe

oder

eine Katze im Sack

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Your friend Kellerkind must be as mad as our reirato - if one can hear a super-tweeter then it is obviously producing frequencies below 20K, in which case it is no doing more than a plain old tweeter.
A super-tweeter makes as much sense as an infra-red tv...

R


P.S. Como é que se traduz "enfiar o barrete" para alemão?  

I am so sorry for all the disabled... Even the deaf! Helas!!  

But other from the ears, ST can be and are felt by the whole individual as a body, and procures an other degree of immediacy for the music!...
That's my firm belief!? ...
 

 

 

Isto é que vai práqui uma maré de germano parlantes!! ...
Eh! Eh! Eh!! ...

 

 

reirato escreveu:

 

Isto é que vai práqui uma maré de germano parlantes!! ...
Eh! Eh! Eh!! ...

 

 

P.S: Google translation=Das wird eine Flut von práqui Deutsch Lautsprecher!

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Your friend Kellerkind must be as mad as our reirato - if one can hear a super-tweeter then it is obviously producing frequencies below 20K, in which case it is no doing more than a plain old tweeter.
A super-tweeter makes as much sense as an infra-red tv...

R

P.S. Como é que se traduz "enfiar o barrete" para alemão?  

I have no experience with super tweeters, but everyone who heard them reports that there is a audible difference. The ST 50 has a adjustable crossover frequency of 14, 16 or 18 kHz and reaches 54 kHz. Generally spoken is Tannoy a no-nonsense manufacturer and makes no fake products. Chief developer Paul Mills can explain the mechanisms for sure. Some years ago the Tannoy TD series speakers had even integrated ST.

Let's relax and hear reiratos findings.

"enfiar o barrete" could mean "über den Tisch ziehen"

Pleas gents, stick to the languages you know.  

 

mannitheear escreveu:

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Your friend Kellerkind must be as mad as our reirato - if one can hear a super-tweeter then it is obviously producing frequencies below 20K, in which case it is no doing more than a plain old tweeter.
A super-tweeter makes as much sense as an infra-red tv...

R

P.S. Como é que se traduz "enfiar o barrete" para alemão?  

I have no experience with super tweeters, but everyone who heard them reports that there is a audible difference. The ST 50 has a adjustable crossover frequency of 14, 16 or 18 kHz and reaches 54 kHz. Generally spoken is Tannoy a no-nonsense manufacturer and makes no fake products. Chief developer Paul Mills can explain the mechanisms for sure. Some years ago the Tannoy TD series speakers had even integrated ST.

Let's relax and hear reiratos findings.

"enfiar o barrete" could mean "über den Tisch ziehen"

Basicly, snake oil....

Co'a conversa deixei o Brutus e o Lenco a moer um disco ali do outro lado! ...
 

Aquela traquitanagem toda está a surpreender-me    Mais e melhor     todos os dias!!

Nasceu uma  no meu jardim!!

António José da Silva escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Your friend Kellerkind must be as mad as our reirato - if one can hear a super-tweeter then it is obviously producing frequencies below 20K, in which case it is no doing more than a plain old tweeter.
A super-tweeter makes as much sense as an infra-red tv...

R

P.S. Como é que se traduz "enfiar o barrete" para alemão?  

I have no experience with super tweeters, but everyone who heard them reports that there is a audible difference. The ST 50 has a adjustable crossover frequency of 14, 16 or 18 kHz and reaches 54 kHz. Generally spoken is Tannoy a no-nonsense manufacturer and makes no fake products. Chief developer Paul Mills can explain the mechanisms for sure. Some years ago the Tannoy TD series speakers had even integrated ST.

Let's relax and hear reiratos findings.

"enfiar o barrete" could mean "über den Tisch ziehen"

Basicly, snake oil....

That or ox poop.  

R

Mas para que serve um super tweeter para um ser humano... e ainda por cima com mais de 50 anos??
 

mannitheear escreveu:

everyone who heard them reports that there is a audible difference.

That phenomenon is very well described in the parody "The emperor's new clothes"; or in other words, you'd have to work hard to find a dozen audiophiles with enough balls to question Tannoy's no-nonsenseness, Paul Mills explanatory powers or the non-audibility of a 600+€ gadget...

On the other hand, it is a fact that most of us cannot hear much above 18kHz, that most microphones start rolling off the treble at around the same frequency and that the Tannoy uses a 3rd order high-pass filter which means that if you set it at 16kHz it'll still reproduces sound below that frequency with considerable intensity (i.e. a 10kHz signal is only 10dB softer).

R

To the deaf and all of non believers ...

 

Rest in Peace! ...

 

reirato escreveu:

To the deaf and all of non believers ...

 

Rest in Peace! ...

 

Amen!

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

everyone who heard them reports that there is a audible difference.

That phenomenon is very well described in the parody "The emperor's new clothes"; or in other words, you'd have to work hard to find a dozen audiophiles with enough balls to question Tannoy's no-nonsenseness, Paul Mills explanatory powers or the non-audibility of a 600+€ gadget...

On the other hand, it is a fact that most of us cannot hear much above 18kHz, that most microphones start rolling off the treble at around the same frequency and that the Tannoy uses a 3rd order high-pass filter which means that if you set it at 16kHz it'll still reproduces sound below that frequency with considerable intensity (i.e. a 10kHz signal is only 10dB softer).

R

O.k., personally I try to keep a balance between healthy scepticism and openness to new concepts (or old ones like valves).

I do not want to board this thread of reirato, therefore I will write a little in my apresentação thread about super tweeters and Tannoy.

Penso que em vez de falarmos em nomes feios tais como super-tweeter, podemos pensar antes num tweeter que poderá adicionar mais qualidade ao invés de mais quantidade.

The quality of Tannoy TW (tulip waveguide) tweeters is superb. They extend up to 25 kHz and sound sweet, detailed, open, transparent and crisp where it is required.

The point of supertweeters is not so simple as one might think. Maul Mills explains the concept here in this whitepaper.

mannitheear escreveu:

The quality of Tannoy TW (tulip waveguide) tweeters is superb. They extend up to 25 kHz and sound sweet, detailed, open, transparent and crisp where it is required.

The point of supertweeters is not so simple as one might think. Maul Mills explains the concept here in this whitepaper.

I think it´s more about the quality of the tweeter, than the quantity or range capacity of the tweeter.

António José da Silva escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

The quality of Tannoy TW (tulip waveguide) tweeters is superb. They extend up to 25 kHz and sound sweet, detailed, open, transparent and crisp where it is required.

The point of supertweeters is not so simple as one might think. Maul Mills explains the concept here in this whitepaper.

I think it´s more about the quality of the tweeter, than the quantity or range capacity of the tweeter.

Yes, and the tweeter quality of Tannoy is superb! When I was new to my Turnberry  the openness and transparency remembered me to electrostatic panel speakers. I ever have dreamed of a panel speaker (Quad, Magnepan or Martin Logan), but not anymore. Tannoy can deliver sweet bowed instrument, crisp and natural sounding brass and shockingly realistic and effortless percussion.

And of course they have the ability to transport low level ambiance information.

Tannoy speakers have one maior drawback: they react very sensitive on amplification. An amplifier which does not suit can cause dull, colored and lifeless sound. This type of Tannoy sound can often be heard, even at expositions or dealers which are too often completely clueless. When the amplifier is carefully chosen (not necessarily very expensive) Tannoys live up and sound exceptionally open, they can create a big and well defined soundstage with total disappearance of the speaker itself.

mannitheear escreveu:

The quality of Tannoy TW (tulip waveguide) tweeters is superb. They extend up to 25 kHz and sound sweet, detailed, open, transparent and crisp where it is required.

The point of supertweeters is not so simple as one might think. Maul Mills explains the concept here in this whitepaper.

Paul Mills asks "Is there any musical information above 20kHz, the accepted upper limit to human hearing?" when he should be asking "Is there any recorded musical information above 20kHz, the accepted upper limit to human hearing?".

One should really try to figure out how many recordings from the last century contain information above 20kHz before even thinking about ultra-sonic reproduction...and of course we cannot "hear" anything above 20kHz anyway.

Have a look at this of recent, high quality, DXD 352kHz/24bit recording by 2L.NO:


The information does in fact extend to 30kHz but at 22,5kHz it's already 54dB down (very soft)...and it's full of "trash" above 70kHz (I wonder if this is a DSD byproduct/artifact).

It really amazes me that audiophiles can spend energy and money on such futile matters when 90% of them aren't even getting reasoble sound quality between 50Hz and 15kHz...

R

From the manual:

Once the SuperTweeter is fully run in, you are in a position to fine-tune the system.
Listening room acoustics and personal taste may dictate some adjustment.
Remember that like a subwoofer, the SuperTweeter should not draw attention to itself, but should offer a natural enhancement to the upper frequencies.

How does one adjust a supertweeter by ear if we cannot hear ultra-sounds?
(not that we should adjust anything in our system by ear...perhaps check but not adjust)

We could measure, as some microphones can capture sounds above 20kHz but they probably cost at least twice as much as the ST-50s...  

R

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

mannitheear escreveu:

The quality of Tannoy TW (tulip waveguide) tweeters is superb. They extend up to 25 kHz and sound sweet, detailed, open, transparent and crisp where it is required.

The point of supertweeters is not so simple as one might think. Maul Mills explains the concept here in this whitepaper.

Paul Mills asks "Is there any musical information above 20kHz, the accepted upper limit to human hearing?" when he should be asking "Is there any recorded musical information above 20kHz, the accepted upper limit to human hearing?".

One should really try to figure out how many recordings from the last century contain information above 20kHz before even thinking about ultra-sonic reproduction...and of course we cannot "hear" anything above 20kHz anyway.

Have a look at this of recent, high quality, DXD 352kHz/24bit recording by 2L.NO:

FLAC 24/192 Eugène Bozza: Children's Overture
The Staff Band of the Norwegian Armed Forces

The information does in fact extend to 30kHz but at 22,5kHz it's already 54dB down (very soft)...and it's full of "trash" above 70kHz (I wonder if this is a DSD byproduct/artifact).

It really amazes me that audiophiles can spend energy and money on such futile matters when 90% of them aren't even getting reasoble sound quality between 50Hz and 15kHz...

R

Hello Ricardo,

Now that is very interesting. I have a 2L recording (Nidaros) which is 192/24 FLAC and it sounds to my ears less natural and detailed than vocal recordings of Proprius I have on LP, SACD and even the CD or CD layer of the SACD (Cantate Domino, Viska du Vind, Jefta).

Best regards
Manfred

Hello Manfred,

I realy can't help you there as these subjective assessments depend on too many variables and require extremely efective methodology.
Were you at least using the same D/AC?

Usually the biggest culprit comes down to mic positioning, which most often than not is wrong (for naturalness).
Close-micing, multi-micing and microphones with "tailored" frequency response give more detail but not a natural presentation of neither instrument timbre nor room reverberation.

Besides if one either doesn't have a generous culture of live, unamplified sound our opinion is probably going to be very biased by our taste in (reproduced) sound and from what I gather most people prefer "spectacular" to "natural" sound.

Grüß,
Ricardo

P.S.: I am not implying that your assessment is correct (or incorrect) because I am not familiar with any of the recordings you have mentioned.

I was wondering if we can get those type of frequencies on a record. I don't the dynamic range value for a record (and google does say several values for my question), and if there is a upper bound for the frequency or if is bounded by the dynamic range. Can anyone clarify me?

Can the super-stuff be connected without the rest of the speakers? Then we can know if there is any sound coming from them, isn't it?

tfonseca escreveu:

I was wondering if we can get those type of frequencies on a record. I don't the dynamic range value for a record (and google does say several values for my question), and if there is a upper bound for the frequency or if is bounded by the dynamic range. Can anyone clarify me?

Have a look at the Diagrams section halfway down this page:

http://www.acousence.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=8&layout=blog&Itemid=61

On the LP graph (click to zoom) high frequency recorded sound extends as far as the digital HD file, which is up to around 68kHz.
You can also see the high frequencies are more intense when compared to the 24bit/192kHz graph (either the vinyl playback system is emphasizing the treble or it's self noise from the reading) and there's some ultrasonic noise/trash between 40 and 48kHz (resonance?).
Both LP and 24bit/192kHz exhibit trash above 64kHz which may affect amplifier performance and I believe this is the reason why SACDs player come with low-pass filters.

tfonseca escreveu:

Can the super-stuff be connected without the rest of the speakers? Then we can know if there is any sound coming from them, isn't it?

That is correct, and easy to test...if you can hear it at normal volumes, it's definitely producing sound below 19kHz.

R

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Besides if one either doesn't have a generous culture of live, unamplified sound our opinion is probably going to be very biased by our taste in (reproduced) sound and from what I gather most people prefer "spectacular" to "natural" sound.

Hi Ricardo,

Agreed. I remember well 2 very special performances, a live performance of the Orlando di Lasso Ensemble in the Staircase of Colombischlössle manor house in Freiburg and the performance of Schuberts Forellenquintett by professors of the University of Music Freiburg which both not only were musical very beautiful but sounded also spectacular, The energy of music and sound which were set free by the live quintet was almost unbelievable.

An even inspired street musicians can adjust the personal reference point for sound new.  

On the other hand, live performances can also be boring and uninvolving. If the artists have no good day and you sit in the 20th row behind a pillar on the side I prefer even listening to a CD on my Turnberries.

Tchau
Manfred

reirato escreveu:

Pois...

O danado do BRUTUS desencaminhou-me mais uma vez   juizo não ganho nesta cabeça    mas como se consegue agora ir  ao micro-detalhe !? ...
 
 

Escutem! ...
Apurem o ouvidinho! ...
Se o ouvido não ouve(?)...  O corpinho sente!? ...
 

Vou ter uns SuperTweeter TANNOY ST50


vai-mos trazer o AJS
 
Obrigado, Chefe!!
 

 
Pelo amor da Santa reirato, isso só funciona com fontes digitais mal filtradas!
Por acaso já perguntaste a alguém se sentiu alguma coisa na última ecografia? É que as ondas que se deslocam no gel e no corpo são da ordem dos Giga Hertz. Depois dos 20Khz, só serve para colocar no ar as componentes harmónicas dos 7KHz para cima...
Os ingleses dizem que complementa a apresentação do som, mas a Tannoy é inglesa e os tipos devem ter as ditas orelhas made in UK...

 
Inté

Apesar da razão que vos assiste, continuamos a não reconhecer o facto de que esse tweeter da Tannoy pode muito bem ser um tweeter com uma qualidade do camando e que venha a ser uma mais valia sonora para o nosso amigo reirato.

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

tfonseca escreveu:

a"]Can the super-stuff be connected without the rest of the speakers? Then we can know if there is any sound coming from them, isn't it?

That is correct, and easy to test...if you can hear it at normal volumes, it's definitely producing sound below 19kHz.

R

Se ele se faz ouvir abaixo dos 19khz é possivel que aquilo que ele nos apresenta seja agradavel e complementar à colunas existentes...digo eu...

De facto só mesmo ouvindo!


E se o nosso amigo Reirato diz que está melhor, é porque está mesmo. Experiência em compras e audições não lhe faltarão...

(honestamente caro Reirato, penso que existe por aí quem lhe queira comprar os ditos nos classificados a baixo preço)

 

Alexandre Vieira escreveu:

De facto só mesmo ouvindo!


E se o nosso amigo Reirato diz que está melhor, é porque está mesmo. Experiência em compras e audições não lhe faltarão...

(honestamente caro Reirato, penso que existe por aí quem lhe queira comprar os ditos nos classificados a baixo preço)

 

Ele ainda não os tem....
Tambem gostava de os experimentar aqui com as minhas Tannoy...

Ele vai receber via postal? Queres montar uma operação à porta de casa dele?

Se for no teu turno eu fico com eles, se for no meu, fico com eles na mesma.

 

Alexandre Vieira escreveu:

Ele vai receber via postal? Queres montar uma operação à porta de casa dele?

Se for no teu turno eu fico com eles, se for no meu, fico com eles na mesma.

 

Garganeiros!!

Sois como o João Nabiça...Tudo o que vê, cobiça!!...
 

Logo depois apareceram mais uns e muito mais baratos!! ...  



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-ST50-Super-Tweeter-Speaker-pair-/221284644068

 

 

[quote="reirato
Logo depois apareceram mais uns e muito mais baratos!! ...  

[/quote]

Se calhar não têm a mesma qualidade...  

Sorry guys, but i'm gettin' deaf!!!

To me, whats is giving me more and more pleasure are the PHY drivers with their limited frequency limitations.

But, go ahead with the super tweeters dear friend! If its tour cup of tea, why not?
 

 

By Jove, definitely Reirato's highest hour!

António José da Silva escreveu:

Apesar da razão que vos assiste, continuamos a não reconhecer o facto de que esse tweeter da Tannoy pode muito bem ser um tweeter com uma qualidade do camando e que venha a ser uma mais valia sonora para o nosso amigo reirato.

 
Suspeito que o comentário de Vossa Senhoria vem em contra-argumento do meu post humorístico apresentado mais acima.
Se tal for, informo que é um texto somente informativo ou não e muito espirituoso!
Na realidade, só ouvindo!

Só quis dizer que esses tweeters de super podem não ter nada, mas podem ter uma super qualidade.   Todavia, duvido que as Blumenhofer tenham tweeters de qualidade inferior.

António José da Silva escreveu:

Só quis dizer que esses tweeters de super podem não ter nada, mas podem ter uma super qualidade.   Todavia, duvido que as Blumenhofer tenham tweeters de qualidade inferior.

 
Blumen... o quê? Não podias ter arranjado uma marca menos esquisita?
 
As Blumenhofer e muitas outras marcas que andam neste peditório.
Lembram-se de umas colunas Alemãs que tinham 3 transdutores que irradiavam a 360º sem caixa; um para graves, outro para os médios e outro ainda para os agudos?
E os tweeters ribbon, os electroestáticos e os de plasma que até produzem algum ozono e ajudam a matar a bicharada?
 

microseiki escreveu:

Sorry guys, but i'm gettin' deaf!!!

To me, whats is giving me more and more pleasure are the PHY drivers with their limited frequency limitations.

But, go ahead with the super tweeters dear friend! If its tour cup of tea, why not?
 

Do you have PHY based speakers? I heard them with mixed feelings. If you want, read more about that in  my apresentação thread.

Best wishes,
Manfred