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 Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyDom Set 04 2022, 13:37

José Miguel escreveu:
...No caso das colunas, já falado no tópico delas, isso é mais claro e visual. Aqui no DAC as soluções são menos evidentes aos olhos, mas estão lá e nisso não há nada de proibido...

E se o pé em cada margem fosse um pé nas Cassia e o outro no Galle com o amigo Ricardo, não a fazer mas a ser a ponte? Se ele for transparente o conçeito é invisivel mas se ele for visivel o conçeito fica errado... é ele que se torna no elemento central em vez que sejam os aparelhos. È uma pequena reflexão de domingo de ressaca scratch

Laughing
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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyTer Jan 10 2023, 16:40

Não podia deixar cair esta thread.

Os Galle (transporte e dac) andam em rotação e teste intenso faz alguns meses, mas algures numa trajectória que se pode muito bem dizer infinita temos que deixar cair o martelo e o escopro e dizer: feito!

Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Cinnam10
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Cinnam11
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Cinnam12
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Dsc04912
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Img_1710

O design continua a render-me diariamente, com a simplicidade aparente a esconder uma quantidade de detalhe onde me perco com frequência. Acomodo-me no brilho do bronze, a mudar ao longo do dia com a luz ambiente.

A minha convicção é que a performance subiu mais um degrau com o associar das massas inabaláveis e bem amortecidas pela construção de pêndulo invertido.


Última edição por ricardo.canelas em Qua Jan 11 2023, 13:44, editado 1 vez(es)

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 13:32

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
Não podia deixar cair esta thread.

Os Galle (transporte e dac) andam em rotação e teste intenso faz alguns meses...


Efectivamente seria pena que um dos topicos que metem o holofote no material Made in Portugal desapareça antes mesmo de tomar a intensidade devida... a culpa é do criador, e não sò  Wink , pois na vida cada um carrega as suas malas  Laughing

Quanto ao material digital que anda em rotação, não posso deixar de ver um paralelo com um formato concurrente e a evidência que o nosso amigo Ricardo Canelas ainda não escolheu o seu campo! Não se pode viver com deus e com o diabo diz o ditado popular  dvil

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... O design continua a render-me diariamente, com a simplicidade aparente a esconder uma quantidade de detalhe onde me perco com frequência. Acomodo-me no brilho do bronze, a mudar ao longo do dia com a luz ambiente...

Indiscutavelmente existe aqui uma relação narcissica com a obra... o eterno dilema entre o criador e a criação, mas vamos perdoar ao nosso amigo essa fractura intelectual e ajudà-lo a encontrar a via do meio. Pessoalmente, olhando para a foto abaixo tenho o sentimento que o nosso prezado colega imbibido pela elegância massiva do mitico Technics SP10 tentou copiar um gira em streamer... apareçe um disco em bronze (que não roda) e um corpo em aluminio que subentende a base. Està bem feito este crossover entre digital e analogico. O nosso amigo tém ideias Cool
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Dsc04910

Laughing

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 13:35

Prezado ricardo.canelas,

Sem exprimir parecer sobre desempenho, observo os bonecos, apreciando o semblante rústico/industrial do conjunto Galle, o qual é singular na indústira de alta-fidelidade.

Felicito o aspecto físico, resultante do empenho aplicado na concepção,
What a Face
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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 13:52

TD124 escreveu:

Pessoalmente, olhando para a foto abaixo tenho o sentimento que o nosso prezado colega imbibido pela elegância massiva do mitico Technics SP10 tentou copiar um gira em streamer... apareçe um disco em bronze (que não roda) e um corpo em aluminio que subentende a base. Està bem feito este crossover entre digital e analogico...

Essa é das facetas que mais me orgulho, descaradamente, pois tenho responsabilidade muito reduzida aqui: o design é feito por pessoas completamente agnósticas aos clichés do hifi, e no final existe esse paralelo, mais acidental e circunstancial do que qualquer outra coisa, mas absolutamente precisoso. Como firme crente em comportamento emergente e tudo o que isso implica, para mim é um grande locus de alegria.

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 14:06

Dear Ricardo,

the pictures show well how beautiful the design and execution of the Galle is, I like especially the somewhat "sophisticated rough" industrial surface of the boxes themselves!

Would you tell us something about what's in the boxes, what the recessed circle is for and what makes them different from the crowd from a listeners perspective?

bounce

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 15:49

Hey Mann,

Glad you like it. It is a risky proposal, so validation is always welcome!

Regarding technicalities:

- The transport is a low power ARM chipset implementation, striped from everything superfluous. Power supply comes from a regulated outboard, transformer is ridiculously oversized and shielded. The power and data buses on the main board (USB and I2S) are as far away as possible, the i2s and coax outputs are reclocked just before the output connectors, but in my mind usb is king. The SO is a customized moode branch of mine, with a couple of minor touches. It provides all the goodies you can expect: NAS, networked, usb mount, internet radio, spotify connect, roon bridge, upnp (for qobuz and tidal and anything else). By default it is paranoically bit-perfect, you can enable the dsp, eq and upsampler. The interface is web based, so you can use any device in your house with a browser as your remote.

- The dac is a custom differential r2r topology. Same power supply as the streamer, just 3 of them. The four r2r ladder lanes have 0.01% resistors. Inputs are fifo reclocked (usb and coax). The digital filter was designed by me and provides a quasi-nos behavior: it is effectively nos at output (you can see the stepped waveform and all) even if there is a form of oversampling. The ladder is a perfect voltage source, and apart from coupling protection there is no output buffer, it is direct. It is the purest form of a dac I can think of - minimal signal path, actual attention to the digital side of things (not a chip with everything defined by you from a chip manufacturer) and the glorious capability of running this with no output stage buffer.

The boxes are the definition of mass loaded, with over 20Kg of metal around the parts. Curiously most of the mass is in the top of each box - they are an inverted pendulum. Couple that with the bronze cap on top, that is glued with an viscoelastic polymer to the rest of the box, you have an inverted damped pendulum. These guys don't move, ring or sing, they just are. By placing the next box on top these become weakly coupled, so stacking is perfect. The cap is, how Paulo puts it, the Ying to the Yang of the rest of the box: the polished, machined and hand finished part of the piece.

Sound wise, coupled with the 2W amp I have feeding the Cassia at the moment, I can see nirvana from the corner of my eye a few times a day. I'll be hard pressed to make a better, more convincing and sonically appealing digital front end in the future, but I'm looking forward for it.

I hope the distinctiveness of the project comes through, we didn't look at anything else and tried to improve it, we aggressively looked at the basics (of digital signal transport and conversion, design and user experience) and moved from there.

Hope you can hear it soon!

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 18:26

Thank you for the insights! That's really impressive and sounds like you mean it really serious!

Regarding the stepped waveform of the NOS: this means normally mirror frequencies, thus ultrasonic frequencies. How do you deal with that?

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 11 2023, 21:02

Well, that is the quasi-nos part to the magic step. If you have no filter but enough of a high input sampling rate the noise starts very high on the spectrum! And you get a nice impulse (no pre and post ring, my main reason to try this in the first place) for free along the way Smile

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQui Jan 12 2023, 17:39

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
TD124 escreveu:
... Està bem feito este crossover entre digital e analogico...

Essa é das facetas que mais me orgulho, descaradamente, pois tenho responsabilidade muito reduzida aqui: o design é feito por pessoas completamente agnósticas aos clichés do hifi, e no final existe esse paralelo, mais acidental e circunstancial do que qualquer outra coisa, mas absolutamente precisoso. Como firme crente em comportamento emergente e tudo o que isso implica, para mim é um grande locus de alegria.

Aconteçe-me raramente de ver a verdadeira Paixão na HiFi... cada vez menos para dizer a verdade! Vejo apareçer novos conçeitos, proezas técnicas, rupturas industriais e muita megalomania comercial... mas tudo isto està vestido do cetim branco da indiferência, da ausência de sentido! O dicionario de Françês traduz a Paixão assim: Estado afetivo e intelectual forte o suficiente para dominar a vida mental!... penso que o nosso amigo, voluntariamente ou não, distilou uma bela dose deste ingrediente nesses seus aparelhos digitais aos quais se juntam uma série de simbolos, algo esotéricos, que acabam por dar a essa tecnologia reputada de fria, sintética e analitica um verdadeiro karma, uma alma. Serà isso suficiente para garantir o sucesso? Não sei!... Serà isso suficiente para dar um sentido a um grande aparelho de audio? Indiscutavelmente!!!
Bravo 2cclzes

PS: A Paixão não mereçe a indiferência... toca a botar faladura sobre estes Galle! Ler é bem, escrever é melhor Wink

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQui Jan 12 2023, 21:15

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
Well, that is the quasi-nos part to the magic step. If you have no filter but enough of a high input sampling rate the noise starts very high on the spectrum! And you get a nice impulse (no pre and post ring, my main reason to try this in the first place) for free along the way Smile

That makes sense, I suspected something like that. This is the point where high sampling rates make sense.

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptySex Jan 13 2023, 18:10

Antes de mais quero deixar claro que tudo o que vou escrever deve ser lido com a distância devida à intervenção de uma pessoa não neutra... sendo eu e os meus socios os distribuidores da Cinnamon Audio em França, deixo de ter uma visão distante e desinteressada e torno-me directamente implicado no destino da marca!...

Dito isto, poderia explicar longamente porque razão escolhi a marca e porquê estou contente de o ter feito... afinal marcas hà muitas, porque razão apostar na do nosso amigo no lugar de outras jà estabelecidas? O que é que a Cinnamon tém de singular e praticamente unico? Em quê a visão do nosso amigo inscreve-se numa linha de fuga que o audio vai ter que enfrentar nos anos a vir? De que maneira os Galle do nosso amigo fazém a ponte entre o classicismo e a modernidade, talvez de maneira inconsciente? Porquê esta marca pode ou tém o potencial de ser comercialmente disruptiva? Tantas questões às quais não vou responder desta vez mas vou vos deixar reflectir pois elas mereçem um pouco do vosso tempo interior, pelo menos neste espaço com vocação audiofilo Wink

Nas diferentes estantes e gavetas deste forum discutimos de muitas coisas sém mesmo por vezes ir buscar o outro lado das coisas, ultrapassar uma aparente evidência afim de encontrar as raizes das coisas. Fala-se de digital vs vinil, de antigo vs moderno, de vàlvulas vs transistores e por vezes mesmo do sexo dos anjos pelo intermediario dos cabos e outros acessorios. O nosso amigo Ricardo acaba por nos dar, enfim, uma visão refrescante desta disciplina que muitas vezes cheira a naftalina. Quantos de nòs jà nos perguntamos porque razão somos audiofilos? O que hà de tão empolgante nesta disciplina? È a musica, os aparelhos ou os dogmas que nos agradam? Que audiofilo seriamos se ouvissemos sém os olhos? No mundo dos vinhos diz-se que as mulheres não necessitam de saber para compreender... e no mundo do audio?...

Eu ouvi os dois Galle (Stramer e Dac) ainda fora do utero que ocupam hoje, não penso que nesse espaço amiotico que ocupam actualmente se tenham tornado piores... talvez seja mesmo o contràrio. È raro que eu separe o som do aparelho em si mas neste caso é algo que me apareçe como uma evidência... a soma dos simbolos carregados pelo objecto acabam por ultrapassar a sua função primeira e convidam o espirito a devanear, pelo menos no meu caso. O digital nasceu com a reputação de frio, analitico e metalico e os aparelhos que outrora eram o alvo destes "elogios" são hoje gabados como organicos... que ironia! Sabemos todos que nesta nossa paixão comum pouco hà de objectivo e que os diabos de hoje são os deuses de amanhã... pelo menos para os mais conservadores de entre nòs e que infelismente são a maioria. Olhém para este objecto que me faz pensar a um simbolo potente de uma velha sociedade esotérica e que se chama a "Pedra Bruta"! Olhém para a força de um objecto que està no espaço entre o começo e o fim, que jà não é primitivo mas que também não é perfeito... o espaço entre o antes e o depois e quém sabe se não serà nesse entre dois que este objecto pode mudar a vossa maneira de ver o audio, quém sabe, experimentém  Wink
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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyDom Jan 15 2023, 13:53

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
Não podia deixar cair esta thread.

Os Galle (transporte e dac) andam em rotação e teste intenso faz alguns meses, mas algures numa trajectória que se pode muito bem dizer infinita temos que deixar cair o martelo e o escopro e dizer: feito!

(...)
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Cinnam12
(...)

O design continua a render-me diariamente, com a simplicidade aparente a esconder uma quantidade de detalhe onde me perco com frequência. Acomodo-me no brilho do bronze, a mudar ao longo do dia com a luz ambiente.

A minha convicção é que a performance subiu mais um degrau com o associar das massas inabaláveis e bem amortecidas pela construção de pêndulo invertido.

Eu fico uns dias sem abrir o Fórum e assim que volto sou surpreendido com estas novidades. Muitos parabéns Ricardo, do ponto de vista estético conseguiu algo incrível! Wink Wink (somos dois a gostar aqui em casa)

Não quero deixar de fazer notar que uma visita ao site da Cinnamon é uma mais valia para se compreender o que realmente valem essas "caixas". Os olhos não ouvem, mas os ouvidos alteram a forma como ouvem assim que os olhos se abrem ou fecham para certas realidades. O que nós focamos tendencialmente ouvimos melhor, o cérebro destaca.

O Ricardo diz assim "Bit in, Music out". Não vemos bits ou Música, mas vemos o que nos possibilita os bits e a Música, neste campo acredito que a experiência seja mais rica e possibilite ao ouvinte a experiência de aproximação sensorial.

Repito o repto: Cinnamon a viajar pelo país ou um showroom algures.

Caso seja necessária uma sala no Norte, sei que há um Hotel capaz de oferecer uma sala para se montar um sistema... fica em Espinho, o Arno já passou lá umas noites. Wink

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyDom Jan 22 2023, 18:07

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... It is the purest form of a dac I can think of - minimal signal path, actual attention to the digital side of things (not a chip with everything defined by you from a chip manufacturer) and the glorious capability of running this with no output stage buffer...
(...)
Hope you can hear it soon!

Me neither, I don't want this topic to fall... so a little exange may wake up the sleepy ones, or the shy ones (specially if is done in english  Wink )! Well, as far as I'm concerned, monolithic chips suit me as soon as I'm able to choose the right one(s). For my Dac that I am currently making (DiAn) I moved away from the usual chips and I chose the PCM5102A... it's not the most praised in the HiFi world, it's one of the most used in the professional field on the other hand. One of the weak points of digital is the impulse response... this one gives me the 10Khz square without visual distortion, that suits me fine! Anyway I can not approach the question by any other way ... the digital I understand it but I do not master it, I have to work around the problem by other ways, the output stage, the power supplies and the general layout. By the way, the monolithic chips have the shortest path in digital electronics, its one of their strongest values imho...

The main problem when making a Dac (or any audio source) is that you are at the source of the signal that will be used by the system... any colour here will impact the final result, the error here is either voluntary or a big problem. So I'm counting on the general architecture so that my Dac gives the lie to the idea that digital sound is shit... in itself it's not really difficult! Of course, R2R or R/R DACs are in a way the equivalent of discrete electronics against integrated electronics and have subjective advantages... but as in everything, only the result counts. As long as digital doesn't copy vinyl I'm fine with that Wink

Of course our national German will listen to your Dac... next to me with a glass of wine in hand and a cheese platter nearby, he loves french "art de vivre"! Audio & Cie will be the perfect setting for him to discover Cinnamon Audio... and the most important thing is that he will be with his friend Paulo Very Happy

cheers

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyDom Jan 22 2023, 22:05

TD124 escreveu:


Well, as far as I'm concerned, monolithic chips suit me as soon as I'm able to choose the right one(s). For my Dac that I am currently making (DiAn) I moved away from the usual chips and I chose the PCM5102A... it's not the most praised in the HiFi world, it's one of the most used in the professional field on the other hand.

Almost everything from TI is an excellent choice. Currently one of the most expensive dacs one can buy employs TI chips, for a reason. Of course chips are a perfectly reasonable way to make a dac, and with the offer on hand you are bound to find a good one to suite your needs.

TD124 escreveu:

Anyway I can not approach the question by any other way ... the digital I understand it but I do not master it, I have to work around the problem by other ways, the output stage, the power supplies and the general layout. By the way, the monolithic chips have the shortest path in digital electronics, its one of their strongest values imho...

I focused precisely in the dual problem: what if I could revisit the digital scheme itself? What can I do in the digital domain that will both make sense aurally and technically? I became comfortable with PSUs but output stages are very outside of my comfort zone. Digital is just what I do before breakfast, and seems to be precisely what people haven't been giving a lot of attention. I wanted to find out why!

TD124 escreveu:

The main problem when making a Dac (or any audio source) is that you are at the source of the signal that will be used by the system... any colour here will impact the final result, the error here is either voluntary or a big problem. So I'm counting on the general architecture so that my Dac gives the lie to the idea that digital sound is shit... in itself it's not really difficult! Of course, R2R or R/R DACs are in a way the equivalent of discrete electronics against integrated electronics and have subjective advantages... but as in everything, only the result counts. As long as digital doesn't copy vinyl I'm fine with that Wink

Yeah, I really don't care too much about integrated/discrete dog fights, if I had the same flexibility from an integrated chip as I had from this R2R (well, the fpga) then I'd use it. I don't really like needing to have hundreds of 0.01% tolerance resistors in a ladder, it is expensive and impractical. There are some IC solutions for that, but they are even more expensive... And they require an output stage! I credit a good part of the Galle sound to the lack of the output stage. We have a pure, unbuffered perfect voltage source right at the terminals (ok, with coupling caps, so the adventure lasts for more that a few seconds at a time).

As for colour, that is the risk of making sources indeed! Everyone has their preferences, but you know me, what would you say mine are? And do you think the Galle are a good expression of that?

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptySeg Jan 23 2023, 14:06

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... if I had the same flexibility from an integrated chip as I had from this R2R (well, the fpga) then I'd use it. I don't really like needing to have hundreds of 0.01% tolerance resistors in a ladder, it is expensive and impractical. There are some IC solutions for that, but they are even more expensive... And they require an output stage! I credit a good part of the Galle sound to the lack of the output stage. We have a pure, unbuffered perfect voltage source right at the terminals...

My friend Borge Strand-Bergesen uses an fpga in his Dac (Henry Audio) to recover the usb signal and transform it into I2S to power an AK chip, he made a proprietary program praised by the Oslo Audio-Society... but he is a digital specialist like you! I thought of working with him for my usb input last year but after I had a long discussion with Domenico from Amanero Technologies and he agreed to make a new version of his card for anTiTon... that's how it will work the prototype! Everything running inside an fpga is esoteric to me, a kind of black hole or sorcerer recipe, i guess that's why digital beauty is unknown by many audiophiles...  Razz

There are always several ways to see the architecture of an audio device... simplicity has many advantages if it is not confused with simplism. The less we have serial or parallel components in the signal path, the less we have active stages, and the better will be the transparency, it's obvious! On the other hand, simplicity does not leave a large working range for subjective optimization, if it is necessary... As I often say, nothing is simple in audio  Wink

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... As for colour, that is the risk of making sources indeed! Everyone has their preferences, but you know me, what would you say mine are? And do you think the Galle are a good expression of that?

I just said that nothing is simple in audio...your questions and associated answers are going to be another perfect example of what I'm saying. In itself, the purely technical aspect of an audio device is complex by the number of theories, technologies, schools and physical parameters... if we add the parameters of aesthetics, audiophile symbolism and commercial expectation... then it's a maze!...

I don't know what to say about your preferences, I thought I had understood them with the Cassia but the Galle deny that imho... I think, and this is my personal opinion, that you take pleasure in covering the subjective tracks, or you just take pure pleasure and follow your story to where it will take you. I have already said it somewhere in this forum that for me there is no subjective filiation between the Galle and the Cassia... I understand them within the unified framework of a system but not in their individuality. I don't feel a common subjective link between them... on the other hand, at the aesthetic and symbolic level, the filiation is undeniable, it's even a masterclass of maturity from a young brand and i really mean it...

Once I said that, your last question is perhaps the most complex... I'm sure that for you the continuity between Cassia and Galle is natural, for me it isn't! I see a technical continuity, different choices from the mainstream which lead to what I call "modern audiophilia"... I also see daring aesthetic and symbolic choices which, by themselves, fit into a continuity, but i d'ont feel a subjective unity! I have friends that if they listen to your products may fall in love with Cassia and with Galle as well, but they won't be the same... in a desperate attempt to explain myself I'd say that Cassia is for audiophiles and Galle for music lovers! Again this is a purely personal opinion but the fact that you optimized the Galle with the Cassia may explain this... I noticed that this phenomenon is common among designers who optimize their equipment in closed circuit, this leads to compensation more than creation...

So, I don't know very well how to answer to your last question, in fact is you who should answer Laughing

cheers

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptySeg Jan 23 2023, 16:34

Yeah, most definitely this is a simple, but not simplistic effort.

Hehehe, I find it very curious that you think the Cassia and the Galle are at odds at some level. From an almost abstract standpoint they both incorporate aspects not only from classical acoustics but also from psychoacoustics. They both go beyond the reach of normal hearing ranges linearly and they both camouflage their 'complexity' under a 'set and forget' experience veneer.

From a sound aesthetic perspective I consider them both very natural sounding. The Cassia are a high-resolution, high-spatiality and nuanced loudspeakers. Of course, within their neutrality, they perhaps present a somewhat uncommon edge in the highs and austereness in the midbass, that the rest of the system needs to tame and voice with gusto.
The Galle dac is a high-resolution, highly linear source, that shoves the pains of d/a conversion orders of magnitude above the useful audio passband, and so the same happens! I believe it takes advantage of the Cassia blackboard to shine, of course, but it should do so with any other system that just gets out of the way. By far the largest difference I found to most other dacs under direct comparison is the lack of highs grain, but not because the highs are rolled off. The energy in a drummer hitting the high-hats is enough for a WTF moment if you are in another room, thinking of something else, something I currently don't get with vinyl for example. The level of ambiance retrieval from a reference classical recording is extreme IMO, something I take great pleasure in.

Yes, of course a closed design loop forms... I currently don't have the conditions for a dedicated design room, nor other reference equipment. But the Galle was designed with several amplification topologies in hand. The fact the differences are so stark between amplifiers gives me comfort, it is usually one of the signs of something transparent and uncolored.

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptySeg Jan 23 2023, 18:04

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... Hehehe, I find it very curious that you think the Cassia and the Galle are at odds at some level. From an almost abstract standpoint they both incorporate aspects not only from classical acoustics but also from psychoacoustics. They both go beyond the reach of normal hearing ranges linearly and they both camouflage their 'complexity' under a 'set and forget' experience veneer...

For a long time I believed that my listeners were in my head and understood perfectly what I was doing and why... later I understood that this was not the case and specially that it was not their fault but the mine, if you are not clear in your path then no one can follow you, apart from yourself. Listening and choosing a system, or a device, requires the mastery of certain codes that the listener expects the manufacturer or the brand to give him... if he doesn't find that he is troubled and lost, I speak in general. The audiophile is a worried and anxious animal, it must be appeased  Smile

From your words I see that for you there is a continuity between the Cassia and the Galle, both in terms of performance and functionality... but is the sound aesthetic also comparable?... for me no, not at all! I'm not saying one is good and the other bad...they are both different in terms of their sonic aesthetics and that may be on purpose. Lamm always has the same tonal balance despite different technologies... Rega always has different sounds with the same technology, there is no coincidence in all that, it's assumed and voluntary...

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... Yes, of course a closed design loop forms... I currently don't have the conditions for a dedicated design room, nor other reference equipment. But the Galle was designed with several amplification topologies in hand. The fact the differences are so stark between amplifiers gives me comfort, it is usually one of the signs of something transparent and uncolored.

Transparency is a very high quality in HiFi, but it is not the Major Quality... imho the tonal balance (I prefer the term "sound aesthetics" or "equilibrium") is the signature of a designer or a great brand.. .it's a constant found in all their products. Currently that I have to choose the brands (and devices) to equip my showroom, I realize how difficult it is to find coherent sound identities inside a brand. It is as if the wines of Alentejo resemble those of the Dão sometimes...

Finally the main question is simple, do you make devices for listeners or for yourself? In the first case you have to leave your interior and look at you, and your gear from afar, as the others are watching you... in the second case it's simple, you do it and that's it! Sometimes what is clear for us is abstract for the others. In the author's audio the sound of the devices speaks of its own creation as well as of its creator... when all that is coherent the listener feels it. It is important... Wink

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptySeg Jan 23 2023, 18:51

What a dialogue!

Thank you for giving us a little insight into the workshops of the masters.

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptySeg Jan 23 2023, 20:27

Ah, now I see where you were aiming at, and your idea about the distance between the loudspeakers and the digital front end is clearer. I can say a few things, I share your view on what a structured offer from a manufacturer should look like and what that means for his users. I also have what I consider to be good and bad examples on brands all around us.

Concerning Cinnamon, the path is right at the beginning, there aren't too many data points on how a portfolio will look like in a few years. I'm trying to do something fresh, with limited resources, in a very unforgiving area, and there are considerable risks. I have a vision and the humility to recognize it is very likely a naïve one, but I'm a travel kind of guy, the path for me is as important as the destination. I look forward to be exposed to users and other manufacturers, have interesting conversations, have my ideas challenged and being forced to change them, while maintaining my identity intact and distinguishable. And I'm leaning a lot on you for support on this Very Happy

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyTer Jan 24 2023, 14:11

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... now I see where you were aiming at, and your idea about the distance between the loudspeakers and the digital front end is clearer...

I wouldn't say distance but rather difference... there is no distance between a three star Michelin restaurant in Tokyo, New York or Paris because they are at the same qualitative level... simply the food and the tastes are different.

I remind you, and the readers, that Michelin stars are given to the restaurant and not to the chef... a way of reminding that the brand is more important than the man behind it. Do not forget that is to learn humility because the kitchen (the product) is more important than the one who does it... in the audio it's the same thing i believe  Wink

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... Concerning Cinnamon, the path is right at the beginning, there aren't too many data points on how a portfolio will look like in a few years. I'm trying to do something fresh, with limited resources, in a very unforgiving area, and there are considerable risks...

Unlike me I think you are transforming your ideas into reality... when I started I had a know-how but absolutely no idea what I was going to do as devices technically, but I knew what that I wanted subjectively. You, on the contrary, have a global vision and a defined direction with technical choices assumed in the different audio sectors. Never forget that with any technology it is possible to do Magic or Shit and it is you who decides the direction. The eternal ambivalence of creation... it is the product that receives the Michelin stars but it is necessary a man behind the product to create it. When a product is finished it ceases to be yours and becomes everyone's, think about what you want it to say about you, he is a personal card of your sensitivity  Wink

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... but I'm a travel kind of guy, the path for me is as important as the destination. I look forward to be exposed to users and other manufacturers, have interesting conversations, have my ideas challenged and being forced to change them, while maintaining my identity intact and distinguishable.

Audio is an exciting field and when it is associated with creation then it is even more exciting and this is where it is possible to get lost... to forget its essence, its reason for being and its purpose because a device is not a work of art, an Opera yes! It's simple, and human, in a creative field to start looking at yourself and the work and forget that it is intended to touch the others... falling in love with his work is the capital sin of the artist, looking at himself move forward as if the world were all about him and his ego. The path only makes sense if it leads somewhere and that goes for everything in life, even for art. The pleasure of the moment should not overshadow the objective, even abstract, at the risk of being misunderstood and rejected...

A brand is the physical outcome of an idea... its identity is closely linked to its founding values, even if they can, and must, evolve over time. If the founding values ​​of Cinnamon-Audio mingle with your intimate values ​​only, then there is a risk of loss of identity. On the other hand, if your brand has concrete and solid values ​​related to its field of activity, then industrial pragmatism will ensure that the brand identity remains constant, even when the founder has doubts. It's the subtle, but fundamental, difference between creating a brand and founding a brand... do you feel like the creator or the founder of Cinnamon-Audio?...

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
... And I'm leaning a lot on you for support on this Very Happy

Well, I don't see what I can do and now it's a bit too late... in one or two months your products will be exposed to the public and they will cease to be confidential... it will be the test of truth! At the same time I would become the reseller of Cinnamon which changes my status as a potential mentor... we will be business partners with common goals but each will be on the other side of the fence. I could no longer advise and criticize you at the same time, I would be too involved to be objective or give any good advice. In the meantime I can leave you a few words thrown in the air in an abstract way...

...Baroque music has been my passion and my soul companion for 34 years, it's the music that best suits the punk that I am. It is the music of contrasts in a restricted frequency space, light and dark, white and black, love and anger, god and demon. It is a paradoxically very complex and very accessible musical style where the contrast, one more time, between the harmonic velvety and the luminous and almost dissonant timbres of ancient instruments with cat gut strings and crow feather clips from Hungary generates deep and strange emotions, near divine. I remember the Nagra's R&D director telling me in Geneva that there are only one or two microphones in the world capable of capturing all the power and nuances of an Amati original violin with cat gut strings... how many audio gear are there capable of reproducing it well?...

All the great designers of the past had a musical foundation beyond exceptional technical mastery, Peter Walker, Gordon Gow, Haffler, E.W. Mortimer, Mark levinson, J Hiraga, Louis Thevenaz, Sugano Yoshiaki and etc. The audio devices exist to reproduce the music and not the sinus or square signals... the measurement is mandatory but the listening is also fundamental and it is this which separates a small device from a great one... not the measurements. I have always known since my first brand in 1995 that each of my devices should be able to reproduce with all its intensity and subtlety a Stabat Mater from Pergolesi or Vivaldi... this continues to be my guiding thread today, it is my breadcrumb trail who keeps me from getting lost. That's the common wire that exists between any of my machines, I'm sure that Man as any other of my friends and customers will agree on that...

cheers

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyTer Jan 24 2023, 20:36

TD124 escreveu:
....I have always known since my first brand in 1995 that each of my devices should be able to reproduce with all its intensity and subtlety a Stabat Mater from Pergolesi or Vivaldi... this continues to be my guiding thread today, it is my breadcrumb trail who keeps me from getting lost. That's the common wire that exists between any of my machines, I'm sure that Man as any other of my friends and customers will agree on that...

cheers

Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 843159

This goal or intention is achieved, and implicitly contains a whole lot more...

2cclzes

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyTer Jan 24 2023, 22:53

Curiously enough I've spent a bit of time in the last days carefully contrasting Pergolesi's Stabat Mater by Lezhneva/Jaroussky to the recording from Ensemble Resonanz. Why these two? I have no idea, but I'm quite fixated.

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 25 2023, 10:34

mannitheear escreveu:
... This goal or intention is achieved, and implicitly contains a whole lot more...

Thx for your words Man! Of course, i could put at the place of the Stabat Mater's the Virgin Vespers from Monteverdi, Mathaus Passion from Bach, Obscurity Lessons from Couperin, Mozart Requiem by Harnoncourt and so on, so on... the intention and goal will be the same! When this music is perfectly reproduced, i guess that the rest will be easy reproduced also... except some Bruckner's or Chostakovitch Symphony's  Laughing

ricardo.canelas escreveu:
Curiously enough I've spent a bit of time in the last days carefully contrasting Pergolesi's Stabat Mater by Lezhneva/Jaroussky to the recording from Ensemble Resonanz. Why these two? I have no idea, but I'm quite fixated...

I listened yesterday to both versions and I didn't get into it. Baroque music presents certain technical complexities such as the fact that the music is not completely written (the Basso Continuo is simply notated), some singers were castrati or young children and many playing techniques were lost... this involves musicians arqueologists to unlock some lost secrets of this music, like Harnoncourt among a few others...

Baroque liturgical music has the particularity of having an imposed theme, as for the painting of the time, thus the Stabat Mater (The mother was there) is the vision, seen by the artist, of the mother of Christ attending his agony on the cross...a nightmarish image! There can be no excessive romanticism or lyricism here, only sorrow and pain...

For me, and here we go into the subjectivity and sensitivity of each of us, those who remain the most beautiful examples of the works cited are these two that I present. At an audiophile level that of Pergolesi undermines the majority of small and medium systems... it's a nightmare to reproduce in the upper midrange! That of Vivaldi forces the system to a stratospheric level of tonal coherence! In short, it's not pieces for battery-operated radios Laughing
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Sm_p10
Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 Sm_v10

Anyway, your digital devices gives us the space to talk about beautiful music... that's the goal of a audio gear!
I'm curious to hear this records, and many others on Galle...

cheers

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MensagemAssunto: Re: Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?)   Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 EmptyQua Jan 25 2023, 16:48

Cinnamon Galle - História de mais aparelhos (de Z a A?) - Página 2 P1110710

Since we talk digital here, voilà a sneak peek of DiAn in combo with Solo. It doesn't have the radical minimalism of the Galle... rather the smiley face of the Arno's family. But the box colour and materia are the same... Wink

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