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 My TOP 5

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Goansipife
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 11:28

Dear Mannitheear, once again,

Now about your Top 5 up-to-date speakers and "promising technical advanced speaker systems designed for high resolving, high dynamic, full range, time coherent, neutral and authentic music reproduction", let me say you:

- Made in Germany there is a lot of very good equipment but the advertising, sales representation and merchandising are a complete disaster here in Portugal or even in UK. Sorry to say it, but it's true


cheers

PS.: In my previous post I forgot to link this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKAgRgcS9tk
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mannitheear
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 11:53

Goansipife escreveu:
Dear Mannitheear, once again,

Now about your Top 5 up-to-date speakers and "promising technical advanced speaker systems designed for high resolving, high dynamic, full range, coherent time, neutral and authentic music reproduction" , let me say you :

- Made in Germany there is a lot of good equipment but the advertising, sales representation and merchandising are a complete disaster here in Portugal or even in UK. Sorry to say it, but it's true


cheers

PS .: In my previous post I forgot to link this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKAgRgcS9tk
Thx for the great link! 

You're completely right that these companies are not present in Portugal. Thats a pity and even I can't listen to speakers without travel...except the Geithain where i have a representative near by. But - I still hesitate for a demo until I have my amp from Paulo.


But there are quite frequently audio fairs in Germany and with a bit of luck 2 or 3 of them are present at the same show to compare. Audio Optimum has some dealers for TMR i know only one.  For the Silbersand and Abacus a private demo could probably be arranged. European flights are cheap today!


cheers
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ricardo onga-ku
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 14:02

mannitheear escreveu:
Dear Ricardo,

glad, that the TAD was a joke... Why bother around with the overpriced and outdated high end dinosaurs with yesterday technology when there are advanced and technological evolved complete systems available?

Top 5 of most promising technical advanced speaker systems designed for high resolving, high dynamic, full range, time coherent, neutral and authentic music reproduction.

All 5 have in common:
- full active speaker or complete system
- reasonable price (a complete state of the art system is under 15.000)
- excellent measurements
- unique technological concept found nowhere else
- developed and made in Germany

To make a complete system only a digital source with volume control is needed (for example RME ADI-2 DAC, the TMR Monolith only needs a digital source (Raspberry Pi, computer, CD drive…).

1. Musikelektronik Geithain RL922K


Technological highlights:
- MEG builds their own coaxial drivers
- directional bass radiation for more even in room bass response

2. Abacus/ Audiovero Horn


Technological highlights:
- Super high efficiency horn for mid/high
- 2 versions available with analogue active crossover or full digital software crossover with in room measurement

3. Audio Optimum FS82


Technological highlights:
- unique worldwide patented amplifier technology
- phase corrected analgue active crossover

4. TMR Monolith 2


Technological highlights:
- dipole horn for mid/highs
- DSP crossover and Ncore amps
- digital and analogue inputs
- remote control for input and volume

5. Silbersand Delphi


Technological highlights:
- unique drivers with active regulated diaphragms for lowest distortion

I know nothing about those speakers and I'd probably take the TADs over any of those if I could afford them. lol!


But if you are looking for high-tech then these look promising:





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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 14:25

Grimm Audio is perhaps as far as anything i would consider pleasurable or musical. DSP with dubious quality dacs + Ncores? Thanks, but no thanks. Would rather consider getting into boxing if bleeding ears were my goal. Yet, i know a lot of people love this type of clinical sound.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 14:29

Dear Ricardo,

I've much read about the Kii and rate their sonic potential under the others.

The Grimm is too expensive.

The Dutch&Dutch is interesting, but don't touch me intuitive, like KS digital, Neumann, Genelec, Adam....

Check out my suggestions!

Geithain is famous for neutrality and used in Opera heuses and Broadcast studios. The TMR is the culmination of one of Germanys most experienced audio designers, the Audio Optimum is a newcomer but yet well reputed in the professional Audio. And the Abacus is a bargain for what it offers, a forum buddy has them and doesn't write any more in forums, he finally arrived.

All offer what you want: perfect signal accuracy.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 14:32

analog_sa escreveu:
Grimm Audio is perhaps as far as anything i would consider pleasurable or musical. DSP with dubious quality dacs + Ncores? Thanks, but no thanks. Would rather consider getting into boxing if bleeding ears were my goal. Yet, i know a lot of people love this type of clinical sound.

Could you hear them?
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analog_sa
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 14:54

Of course. More than once.
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Goansipife
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 15:07

Hey guys would you mind explain what is so different in those speakers, please. I'm getting curious
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 16:15

analog_sa escreveu:
Of course. More than once.

OMG. All reviews were enthusiastic but ...
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 16:21

Goansipife escreveu:
Hey guys would you mind explain what is so different in those speakers, please. I'm getting curious

Too much reading in the internet...

I chose my top five because the technical concept seems good and I've heard very good things about them from people I trust a bit.

To be clear, I did not listen yet to one of them! And they are still expensive, even if the prices seem justified.

But if I would look for a active speaker in that range, these were definitive my first candidates!

cheers
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ricardo onga-ku
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 17:07

analog_sa escreveu:
Grimm Audio is perhaps as far as anything i would consider pleasurable or musical. DSP with dubious quality dacs + Ncores? Thanks, but no thanks. Would rather consider getting into boxing if bleeding ears were my goal. Yet, i know a lot of people love this type of clinical sound.

I've never listened to any of the above but I usually use "ear bleeder" to describe a speaker with exaggerated and/or distorted treble (i.e. Monitor Audio PL100 or most Focals).
Measurements of these exhibit neither of the aforementioned shortcomings so I would not expect them to be "ear bleeders", unless there's something wrong with the amplification.

Can you clarify what you mean by "musical" and "clinical"?

I know that some poeple don't like a highly resolving system but to me that would be akin to choosing VHS over Blu-ray.

But I am inclined to agree with your comments regarding the quality of DACs and amplification in any of these speakers, and I guess like most audiophiles I am supicious of the advantages of active speakers and of DSP'ing frequency response and correcting impulse/phase.

I'm more open to using DSP for room correction.

My only hands-on experience to date was a KRK Ergo DAC which used Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect DSP below 300Hz. The DAC itself performed a lot worse than my CD player so I didn't really feel that digital room correction was doing much for me.
I intend to try HQ Player's convolution engine at some point but I must buy a USB mic first...


Última edição por ricardo onga-ku em Sex Nov 09 2018, 17:39, editado 1 vez(es)
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 17:25

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:


Can you clarify what you mean by "musical" and "clinical"?



This is one of the toughest things to clarify with words, isn't it?

I think i prefer brighter and more analytical sound than most people. Hey, i even listen to Focal titanium tweeters Smile
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 17:36

Este ano pouco me surpreendeu, mas dois sistemas me saltaram aos ouvidos.

O primeiro foram estas colunas híbridas que me impressionaram bastante.




Em segundo, este sistema.


Magnifico. Demostrado pelo próprio Peter Lyngdorf com um SPL elevado. Ouvir uma orquestra por este sistema foi uma experiência fantástica.


Como a vida não é só digital. Menção honrosa para o Bladelius Tyr (e modelos acima deste). Não conhecia este fabricante Sueco. Pelos visto o criador, passou por várias conhecidas marcas (primare, nelson pass, etc.) antes de criar a sua própria linha. Gostei tanto que comprei um para um sistema secundário para trazer vida a umas doces e difíceis (de emparelhar) colunas.



Finalmente, os novos Meze Empyrean. Confesso que os ouvi sem saber o preço, pensei que custavam menos de 1000€. Não sei se valem o que pedem, mas gostei deles.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 17:37

mannitheear escreveu:
Dear Ricardo,

I've much read about the Kii and rate their sonic potential under the others.

The Grimm is too expensive.

The Dutch&Dutch is interesting, but don't touch me intuitive, like KS digital, Neumann, Genelec, Adam....

Check out my suggestions!

Geithain is famous for neutrality and used in Opera heuses and Broadcast studios. The TMR is the culmination of one of Germanys most experienced audio designers, the Audio Optimum is a newcomer but yet well reputed in the professional Audio. And the Abacus is a bargain for what it offers, a forum buddy has them and doesn't write any more in forums, he finally arrived.

All offer what you want: perfect signal accuracy.

To be absolutely honest Manfred I am not particularly attracted to any of the speakers you've mentioned. And I'm not convinced about the "perfect signal accuracy" either, exception for the Geithains.

Abacus
If I were to buy horns, I would rather go for these or these. JBL is also using a coaxial 2-way compression driver on the M2 but theirs is not horn-loaded (they use a waveguide). The Abacus is a definite no for me.

Silbersand
Small MTM with metal cones? No, thanks.

TMR
"The aim was to combine the advantages of high efficiency speakers, coaxial systems, open baffles, active subwoofers, Class D amplifier operation and DSP equalization and digital control without their specific disadvantages in a product which on the one hand a maximum compatible with streaming, represents NAS operating and control via PC and on the other hand ensures the highest musicality in the current state of our knowledge."
It looks like their design-brief is partly driven by user convinience...
The TMR measurements don't look impressive, the frequency response is tilting in the wrong drirection and there's too much distortion from 2kHz onwards. Probably a no too.

Audio Optimum
I don't know what to think, really. For 12.000€/pair there's a lot to choose.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 17:50

tfonseca escreveu:
Este ano pouco me surpreendeu, mas dois sistemas me saltaram aos ouvidos.

O primeiro foram estas colunas híbridas que me impressionaram bastante.




Em segundo, este sistema.


Magnifico. Demostrado pelo próprio Peter Lyngdorf com um SPL elevado. Ouvir uma orquestra por este sistema foi uma experiência fantástica.

Escolhas interessantes. Gostava de um dia escutar as Steinway-Lyngdorf.




Pessoalmente prefiro manter o controlo sobre todos os elos da cadeia mas concedo que umas colunas optimizadas com amplificação activa, DSP e correcção acústica d resposta na sala são difíceis de bater...
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 18:01

Dear Ricardo,

perhaps you're right - perhaps not.

I tried several times to like Avantgarde, but no chance!

The best horns I ever heard were the A Capella (Violin if I remember well).

Do you have a link to TMR measurements?
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 18:08

mannitheear escreveu:
Dear Ricardo,

perhaps you're right - perhaps not.

I tried several times to like Avantgarde, but no chance!

The best horns I ever heard were the A Capella (Violin if I remember well).

Do you have a link to TMR measurements?

I've never listenned to the Cessaros, but they're ridiculously expensive anyway, nor the Acapellas but plasma does raise the question of health and safety...
What about these Odeons?

The measurements are halfway down the bottom of the page:

https://www.tmr-audio.de/index.php/inhalt/produkte/tmr-lautsprecherboxen-und-ersatzteile/neue-lautsprecherboxen-2017/warum-koaxial-lautsprecher
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ricardo onga-ku
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 18:10

Odeon / No. 28 (Gebrauchtgerät) - 6.190,00 EUR

https://www.audio-markt.de/_markt/item.php?id=3152269819
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 20:29

mannitheear escreveu:
Dear Ricardo,

perhaps you're right - perhaps not.

I tried several times to like Avantgarde, but no chance!

The best horns I ever heard were the A Capella (Violin if I remember well).

Do you have a link to TMR measurements?

Both of us

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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sex Nov 09 2018, 23:51

mannitheear escreveu:


I tried several times to like Avantgarde, but no chance!


I love the Trios with the subs. Need a really big room though. And valves. Perhaps the only horns i have ever liked.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 13:30

Well... I heard once the Zero model with a Mastersound Compact or Evo (??) 300B in UAE and it wasn't a bad experience, but... as I said before all the range are not my fun
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 14:18

The Zero is a lifestyle product for rich teenagers. It has nothing at all in common with the Trios.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 14:33

analog_sa escreveu:
The Zero is a lifestyle product for rich teenagers. It has nothing at all in common with the Trios.

For rich teenagers!? So it’s definitely for me. I'm not rich speaking in money but i'm rich as teen. I already have almost 6 times ten
lol!
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 15:07

As cornetas produzem um "apresentação" bastante particular devido às características de dispersão que apresentam uma forte direcional idade. Isso significa menor interacção com a sala acima dos 300Hz, que traduz numa imagem menos difusa e com menos efeito de palco.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 15:13

The last time I heard Avantgarde it was the Trio, but it's many years ago. The sound was like listing through a tummel, very unnatural. But it was on a show and I heard they made many improvements since then, especially the subs.

@analog_sa: Did you hear the A Capella? This was one of the 4 or 5 best (most natural) presentation of classical music I ever heard.

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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 15:32

mannitheear escreveu:
The last time I heard Avantgarde it was the Trio, but it's many years ago. The sound was like listing through a tummel, very unnatural. But it was on a show and I heard they made many improvements since then, especially the subs.

Manfred,

The tunnel sound is probably taking place in the midrange or lower-treble, nothing to do with subs.
Where you sitting in the sweet-spot?

I only mentioned horns after you suggested the Abacus. I am convinced that they will perform a lot worse than any of the Avant-gardes.
Horns have a limited operating range and optimally shouldn't cover more than two octaves. The high-pass frequency must avoid triggering the resonance of the horn or you'll get a tromboneing effect, and a low-passing is required because horns begins to lose efficiency at some point.
In practice this means that you need twice as much ways to cover the same range as with direct radiation.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 16:01

ricardo onga-ku escreveu:

Manfred,

The tunnel sound is probably taking place in the midrange or lower-treble, nothing to do with subs.
Where you sitting in the sweet-spot?

I only mentioned horns after you suggested the Abacus. I am convinced that they will perform a lot worse than any of the Avant-gardes.
Horns have a limited operating range and optimally shouldn't cover more than two octaves. The high-pass frequency must avoid triggering the resonance of the horn or you'll get a tromboneing effect, and a low-passing is required because horns begins to lose efficiency at some point.
In practice this means that you need twice as much ways to cover the same range as with direct radiation.

There were many issues with the Avantgarde: tonality, coherence and the "tunnel" effect. No problem with A Capella. With the Avantgarde I was in the sweet spot, because the room was nearly empty. With the A Capella I was not in the sweet spot because the room was full. But the soundstage was very natural, even from a suboptimal place. And the unobtrusive wealth of details was incredible, almost like live.

The reports about the Abacus Horn are very positive or enthusiastic ("best I ever heard at any price"). No coloration, no "horn" sound, very low distortion - and a fraction of the Avantgarde price.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 17:45

mannitheear escreveu:
There were many issues with the Avantgarde: tonality, coherence and the "tunnel" effect. No problem with A Capella. With the Avantgarde I was in the sweet spot, because the room was nearly empty. With the A Capella I was not in the sweet spot because the room was full. But the soundstage was very natural, even from a suboptimal place. And the unobtrusive wealth of details was incredible, almost like live.

Which Avantgardes are you comparing with the Acapellas?
It's odd that you liked them off-axis. Horns are supposed to be listened to in the sweet with the axis pointing towards the listener. And the fact that one room was empty and the other was full makes a massive difference.
Horns are definitely not for everyone. As mentioned previously they produce very crisp images and little soundstage effect. The tunnel thing could be just very directional stereo. I think that you would be happier with wide-dispersion horns.
What do you mean by tonality, tonal balance/response? And coherence?

mannitheear escreveu:
The reports about the Abacus Horn are very positive or enthusiastic ("best I ever heard at any price"). No coloration, no "horn" sound, very low distortion - and a fraction of the Avantgarde price.

I don't really care for reports unless they come from one or two people I know. I've often read about these giant killers, even bought a few, it's usually a lot of hype that ultimately fails to deliver.

I am not saying that the Abacus will not sound as good as an equiavelent Avantgarde at a much lower price-point but there are aspects of it's topology that limit it's performance.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 18:21

mannitheear escreveu:

@analog_sa: Did you hear the A Capella? This was one of the 4 or 5 best (most natural) presentation of classical music I ever heard.



Let's not forget: we all hear differently, enjoy different types of music and our tastes develop and change over time. There are really no absolutes.

Definitely not a horn person myself. Don't like Cezzaro either. The Avantgarde Trio is my only exception, especially when driven by valve amplification. At some stage an Avantgarde dealer used to be my neighbour, but by that time i already liked them.

The Acapella has left me no lasting memories and i have only listened to it in Munich.

The combination horns + classical just does not work for me. Classical brings all the ugly warts horns have into the open, magnified.

All this only IMHO.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 19:12



@Ricardo: all reports i took into consideration were from people i know. 
Btw, Abacus and the Avantgarde Trio cannot be compared, the Abacus plays well in a small room and with short listening distance while the Avantgarde needs a big room and a wide listening distance.
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Sab Nov 10 2018, 19:57

Following you analog, for my ears, for my taste and way of hearing my favorite music mostly recent horn speakers don't get that click from me.

Of course I mean all those I really know.

I heard Trios with the Subs in last Lisbon's AudioShow and I didn't like at all. Perhaps I was expecting something like the sound of the old horn speakers I had heard on 70's and remains in my mind set

However I agree with you, I'm still convinced those horn speakers are all the best when driven by valve amplification
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MensagemAssunto: Re: My TOP 5   Dom Nov 11 2018, 11:14

tfonseca escreveu:
... Finalmente, os novos Meze Empyrean. Confesso que os ouvi sem saber o preço, pensei que custavam menos de 1000€. Não sei se valem o que pedem, mas gostei deles.

Na realidade custam o triplo ... o que começa a ser algo caro, mesmo para uma tecnologia Planar! Os Can's começam a ser um mercado extravagante e "histerico", um pouco como o dos sistemas de sala. Muitas marcas, muitos modelos, muitas tecnologias, muitas diferenças de preço ... e finalmente um sentimento de "insegurança" no momento da compra da parte do consumidor. Ter uma grande escolha pareçe-me bem, e mesmo fundamental, mas quando a des-informação jà não permite ao consumidor de fazer uma escolha exacta, não hà nada de bom nisso. Acho a atitude actual da Beyerdynamic nesse aspecto muito salutar e mesmo respeituosa do cliente ... pois continuam a fazer evoluir a gama deles, com os pés assentes no chão e praticando preços muito aceitàveis! È a assinatura dos grandes e esta marca alémã continua a marcar pontos comigo ...

Beyerdynamic Amiron _ 475€

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Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte, non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher... Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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